Jason Knight  0:00  
Hello and welcome to the show and an episode where we ask what's all this web three stuff about what all the VCs that invest in it explain it so poorly. Speaking of investment, this episode is sponsored by product people. Now, if you're a company founder or product leader needs to get a product management team up and running quickly, or cover parental leave, check out product people. They've got a thriving community and 40 in house product managers, product ops, pros and product leaders, they onboard fast aligned teams and deliver outcomes. You can check out one night in product.com/product people to book a free intro chat and quote code, okay, to get a 5% discount. That's one night in product.com/product. People could check the show notes for more details. Now, if you listen to my first ever podcast episode, you'll know I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to all this crypto stuff, but maybe I'm just an old hag. So if you want to see if my guests can persuade me that any of this stuff is worth looking at and whether you should be involved in web three products. Keep listening to one that's in product.

Jason Knight  1:05  
So my guest tonight is Rachel sacks. Rachel is a former IVF lab assistant and self described ship poster who wants made it onto the front page of The New York Post at age 20, where she told the world to have fun staying poor before that phrase got popular these days. She's a fierce advocate for web three and crypto who wants to help take it mainstream. So get ready mum. Rachel says that web plays a lifestyle and mindset more than a way to make money which I must say is lucky given some of the news stories I've been seeing these days. But hopefully she's gonna bring some positivity and good vibes to the world of crypto in this interview. Hi, Rachel, how are you tonight?

Rachael Sacks  1:35  
Hi, good. Let me forget that it's nighttime. When are you?

Jason Knight  1:40  
Well, it's actually not nighttime. But I always say night anyway. So no one can pin me down. But let's start at the beginning. Or near to the beginning. Sure, you ended up on the front page of The New York Post, which isn't something that happens to everyone. And you ended up on there with the headline, mean little rich girl. So I have to ask, how did you get on the front page of The New York Post? And what were you talking about?

Rachael Sacks  2:04  
Yeah, so years ago, I was done. We're almost at oh my gosh, actually, it might be like actually the anniversary of it almost like almost 10 and nine years. It'd be nine years ago this time of year as well as like October I forget which one but so I wrote an article online with our catalogue. I've always been somebody who just writes for myself. And so I was just like, I kind of got like, fired up. I just wrote this thing. And it's long, long, like kind of rant and just submitted it. I waited several weeks, and I was just like, I figured out whatever, I'm not gonna take it. I was like standing in Starbucks. And all of a sudden I get I look at my Twitter. And I see all these tags, like and I didn't really use Twitter that much. I was on it. Because like, that was 2013 Everyone was you know, my friends were definitely more popular on it than I was. And all of a sudden it was like all these like messages and I was like, what? And then I saw like the guideline, I did not write that headline. It was like that I don't want to be what is it? What it wasn't even it's like, I'm not gonna pretend to be poor to be accepted by you, I think is what the title was in the article. Yeah, the editor really won and he's great. Like really went in on that story. And it started like me ranting about like coming from a sample sale. Someone give me the stink guy and like going grocery shopping something really just like, and then to actually I went so I went to art school. And there's a lot of people that I was around that would protect who came from money, who pretend to be poor, who pretend that they were struggling to get sympathy from other people until like, fit in and feel like they're cool. And I always thought that was just so stupid. And like very hypocritical. It's like we know how much this university costs. Yeah, you weren't we know you're not on a scholarship. So why are you pretending that you come from this hardscrabble background to give your art more like cachet, or whatever it is, because that seems to be a really common thing in art. For people just like I came from the sequel, they'll tell their story, but it's never it's never real. I mean, that's founder stories are the same. They're always scrubbed. They're always polished. Always like really. So I got that I got a tonne of horrible things said about me, I got a bunch of my email inbox players I use my university email, which is like extra funny. That's kind of my burner almost. So I was getting reader mail I was getting reader mail because I have a whole function for that. And there's a lot of guys a lot of bad and then I'm Gawker was really fat. But like I remember Gawker was really fascinated with me. And so they had a whole series almost about me. And it was just a bunch of people were coming to my inbox and it's just super random was like, this guy who had the show on this show on E it was called like rich kids, LA, they wanted to do a spin off of me. And I was like, you're got the wrong person. I'm not that level of rich. And I just knew like, I have depression. I have like, since I was 11 years like 11 ish, probably about who knows even earlier like, Yeah, I knew that'd be a stupid idea to have cameras in my face like that. That would just be so dumb, but also I was boring, like in terms of what they want, like, I hate going out clubbing hate going out with promoters. It's just such a thing. And everyone does that when you're in college in New York and just, I hated it. I wasn't gonna go shopping like insanely at Barney's or anything rip Barney's and just know like on light on like, yeah, like my life is definitely at like someone who just comes from money but it wasn't like crazy. So I was just like, No. And then Dr. Phil really wanted me on the show. emailing me and my parents are like, are you serious? Like no, I was like, I wasn't planning on going anyway, cuz it's tacky. But he's like, they always just blame the parents. And it was hard to my family. Like they were very vicious toward my family, actually. Yeah, they were going in on my dad, someone once I even found years later, I was just like googling wrote, like a bad review of my father and like, use me as a thing. And it's like, well, this daughter is like a piece of shit. Like you wondered what his lab was just like, I felt that made me feel like shit, that made me feel terrible. Because like, I don't care if it's me, and people are criticising me. If it's my family, then it's just. But I wrote more, I got a contract with our catalogue, I started writing a lot more. I changed my major over to writing I hadn't really decided what I wanted to do. And I was like, Well, if I can get attention for this, I better be good at it. And I had kind of had that choice of like, you can fade into obscurity or you can like really go with it. And I was just like, I just want to be normal, I guess. Yeah. And I just really just did not take all the interviews. I didn't take all the shows. I didn't take all the stuff I was offered. Like Grazia magazine, you know, right off was did an interview with me and they were like they didn't run it because I didn't have a pony. I didn't classmates dead. I just didn't I don't I didn't ride horses. Like they wanted me to like pay me some like Baruch assault s character, which was wild. And I guess really. So they focus here today. Like how the cover really happens is like, I feel like the thing you want to know. So they I got home from class. I had friends in town staying with me and my apartment. And we get back to my apartment and all of a sudden there's all these photographers sitting outside, camped out like in like a crappy little like car, like all and they're there at the door and they start taking photos of me. And that's what ended up on the cover. And I was young and I was just like, I don't want someone to lose their job. I'll go with it. I'll just chat with them. I'll take pictures, I'll do what they want. Because like, I don't want somebody to lose their job. Like that's really naive, by the way, but I was I was a kid. I was 20 I didn't know and so I just let them talk to me. I let them like take certain photos of me like flipping off the camera on Bleecker Street like I was just like this is you know, let me enjoy this a little bit because it's weird and kind of insane and the next day I had like, like actual legit paparazzi following me and my friends around. We had to like run away from them and I was just like, go follow someone else important. Sarah Jessica Parker lives two blocks down Victoria Becker was out way like go find someone actually important. Like I am a no one I even nobody like to get away like no. And that was horrible. And like as a kid I've read different Like Us Weekly and star and all that kind of thing. Like I love British tabloid magazines, too. It's a guilty pleasure always have like, some time off. They're so bad, but I love them. They're so mean, there's so many more than US tabloids, honestly. But I haven't read those my whole life. And if I honestly like I was just thought it'd be interesting, but like, it was awful being followed around. It's horrible. Like, that's just why like I see when I see famous people, I just don't I just act like I don't. Yeah, I just I just don't know, ask them questions. I don't care. Like, there are people I think that taught me the most like, famous people are people. Yeah. And it sucks sometimes like that. It's like I wasn't really getting money from it either. So it's different.

Jason Knight  8:48  
Well, that's quite the story, it feels like you were maybe a little bit misrepresented and manipulated by the media, which is obviously something which is, you know, lots of people will say that they've had that happen to them as well. It should have been quoted out of context. But did it make you feel and maybe, in some ways, help to inform the way that you approach some of the stuff that you do now, like, for example, you're out there advocating for crypto, for example, you're out there writing posts and articles to try and promote that, like, that's a controversial space in in some ways, and obviously, has its own strong opinions. Like, did that whole experience kind of give you a different lens on how you might try and write stuff or present yourself when you're trying to get out there? And to some extent, win hearts and minds of people that may be a little bit sceptical?

Rachael Sacks  9:34  
A bit? Yeah, I mean, I've stayed away from Twitter actually, until like, December of like, the past year. I feel so dumb for doing that, honestly, because I just like that's where all the stuff was. I couldn't be admitting stuff that was way better earlier just from being on Twitter. But you know, people were really terrible. And I was kind of just like, let me just ignore it. And let me just fade into obscurity for a while. But no, I mean, it made me take my writing more seriously. Like I get I spent my 10,000 hours of Writing and doing all of that in school, and then in graduate school, and then I ended up working for the publisher, the Wall Street Journal and like, doing a tonne of writing over there for like just internal stuff, ghostwriting, external communications, and just really digging myself in and really, really working at it. Because it's like, if I'm getting attention for this, it better be good. It's kind of how I feel about it. Yeah. And with crypto too, it's like it better be I try to really be as informative as I possibly can. But honestly, it happened, I got this thickest skin to like just the public from that entire experience because people were just threatening my family telling me like slurs, I had never like a Jewish slur used against me my entire life until Twitter like someone's like, and I was like, Wait, people still use that word. And I didn't know because I grew up in such a bubble like, yeah, for these kinds of things like this intellectual bubble, like liberal bubble like people, I just don't realise that people think and it's like, stuff like that is actually very helpful for me in crypto as well, because it tends to be a really big bubble into itself. Yeah. And so there's a lot of times where I think I think I feel like more than a lot of people in the space about the fact that there's so the vast majority does not understand this, they don't buy into it, they don't get it. And that's something that you can't he can't be so wrapped up in like just the bubble, you have to kind of enter the outside world and understand kind of like a lot of people don't know what you're talking about.

Jason Knight  11:28  
Absolutely. And I think that that puts you ahead of many of the people that are commenting on it. So hopefully that'll help with the rest of this interview as well with old packs like me, but let's talk about crypto then. So you said that you got into crypto in 2013 to buy weed? Yes. But there are loads of ways to make money and loads of ways to buy weed. So what was your intro to crypto in the first place? And why was it attractive to you? Or was it literally just a weed?

Rachael Sacks  11:56  
So I had a friend who was really into buying like to kratom like kinda was going and coming off of some like other addictions. And that was the one that showed up. And then it got like, outlawed in New York. And so he was he found Silk Road and we were close and hanging out a lot and he told me about it. And I was just like, I'm somebody who just loves NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW anything like I'm my open mindedness if you take like that big five personality test if like, I hit 99th percentile for openness, like it's insane. Like, that's way too high of open mindedness to things like open to experience like I've opened to experience Q intellectual curiosity, because it's a whole interesting, different thing. And yeah, I feel really dark and very shady at the beginning, just because I was just like, you had to go download a whole other browser, you had to kind of do like, there's not really a lot of resources. It looked like ebay but like kind of like a like a dark mode version of eBay. Yeah. And honestly, like for me, I've somebody smoked, I smoked and I've had for a long time and just like, I hate the process of going to zero like random friend of a friend's house. They're getting their dealer and sitting around and waiting and all this other in the phone coordination, all this other crap. And I was just like, I always hated that. And so I was like, Oh, well, I could just buy it like in like a online. Okay. But then I thought to logistics, how's it gonna get to my house? Am I gonna get caught? How do I fill up its wallet? How do I make this wallet and it was just so murky and unclear at the time. And I was able to set one up. And when I was in college, I like didn't have money I didn't really have like I was just so worried about my parents are gonna think and like be like, what were you spending his money toward, and scared as myself getting hacked. And so I kind of just lost I kind of just for a bit lost interest, which is crazy to say. And then when I went to work for the journal like you, there's a lot of rules about what you couldn't like not investing in things because you would have insider information and access to that. So I was just like, I better stay on the safe side. And then kind of in 2020 I got really back into it. And I was able to keep myself afloat for a while by just like flipping all coins, like for 2020 and 2021 because I've kind of in and out of employment and just that was really helpful to have that but I am panic bought and sold a Bitcoin within one day when it was $5,000 Like, I didn't have money that's that's always the problem. I think it's what they say it's what helps the rich get richer. It totally does. I do agree with that. There are the lucky cases of people who have $200 $300 they're there. They have the right timing, for sure. And I mean I'm sometimes I'm successful sometimes I'm not in terms of it like right now bear market. It's been very difficult. Like it's Yeah, I feel like look at my portfolio and I'm long holding and just trying to be very conservative with everything and just it's down bad. feeling poor.

Jason Knight  14:39  
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're all having fun staying poor at the moment, everybody. But if we fast forward then to today, you are now working to demystify web three and crypto and help make it mainstream. Yeah. Which obviously speaks a lot to what you were maybe experiencing back when you got into it like this complete lack of clarity And obviously back then even less clarity and even less information about it. And you've started an agency called Narrative. Yes, with a call three for any, which is obviously brilliant. You always know your call when you've got a number in your name. But What work are you doing with narrative and who you're doing it for?

Rachael Sacks  15:17  
Well, I can't really say client face is so a lot of it is a lot of NDAs a lot of confidential,

Jason Knight  15:21  
right, you can be as vague as you can, but

Rachael Sacks  15:24  
projects in the space. I am very chain agnostic, for instance, like there's NF T's that are on different chains, and there can be a lot of infighting and like, Oh, this one's better than this. Like, I'm trying to be really across the board. Hello, there's enough people in any space. There's gonna be beef. Are you kidding me? Like that is how I feel about it. You get into a room statistically, there's like 1000 people at least one of them's gonna be a jackass. Like, that's kind of how it works. That's my theory. It's like if you're statistically like just people will not get along so, so happy like I feel like there's different camps of people in crypto like there's the Bitcoin Maxy types who like they only touch Bitcoin they love Bitcoin, they will die for Bitcoin and anyone else in the space is irrelevant to them. There's people that are Bitcoin and yeah, no, I mean, yeah, yeah, I will say yes. Anyone with the laser eyes on Twitter, you're probably Bitcoin only person. Some of them get over it, NF T's but a lot of them are very big NF T sceptics just because I mean, well, you can't really make them on Bitcoin. The chain. Yeah, but I think was the funniest thing ever. I think it was it was Minecraft fortnight, which is the one that God said like no NF T's. I think it must have been fortnight

Jason Knight  16:36  
you're talking a different language. Okay, so

Rachael Sacks  16:38  
it's a game. It's a big mobile game kids, a lot of kids play. And they were having like, crypto integrations, like people trying to do stuff like that within it. And the company comes forward and says like, an NF T which can be on something like Bitcoin inaccurate. That's not true. That's embarrassing for them. I don't know who was approving that. But that's really embarrassing. And like, part of my why for some things like, like, eventually, for when I'm I you know, this whole space is so huge, and you're just do so much. But I really do want to be helping people de-mystify Crypto Sue at corporations as somebody who's worked for big corporate before and seen how people even think about innovation or how they even think about new things or the process and the way that it's done. Yeah. And how broken it is. It's so bad. Like, I feel as if like when the big companies hopefully when they go over to more web three assets that they find web three native people versus hiring out like a big four, like the the Deloitte KPMG is McKinsey's of the world, because you're gonna have some 22 year old researching stuff, who doesn't know anything and thinks it's weird, and making a deck for their manager to look at half acidly, and then go up to the CEO, and it's not going to be well informed. But then they will have to execute because the CEO is not going to ask people more questions.

Jason Knight  17:59  
I think you've just described consultancies, in a nutshell, to be honest, I don't think that's just a crypto thing. But you know, oh,

Rachael Sacks  18:05  
I, I worked at Dow Jones. Like I saw all this stuff all the time. I was a ghostwriter for CEOs inbox. Yeah, I saw all the Managing Directors, I saw everything from the top of the company of how it all worked. And that's always wondered if you get these multimillion dollar contracts with these consulting firms, and they're just kind of don't do anything. Yeah, with it. That's the problem. It's because it's like, it's not really the fault of it. That's just the structure. And that's the problem is like, it's when people are too set and doing things the same way, which is just a lot of how it is like people will know if it's not broke, don't fix it. Like, no, there's a lot of times and stuff is broken, and you should fix it. So fix it. Like I'm a big I took a class at Harvard Business School, for myself for fun on innovation and disruption that kind of deal with it's like Clayton Christensen, people like worship him. Yep. It's super trippy, because he fell in the room before he died. Like the class because like virtual class, like it was trippy, knowing that was probably one of the last things that he ever did. Which is like that context is kind of insane. But yeah, management and organisational structure, all that kind of thing. Just seeing it, living it understanding it and being like, Okay, well, they're how to innovate on it really what to do with it. And I think that's something that in this space is really right to do. And like, makes me want to expand what I'm doing into more of a company just because I've thought of this for so many years, and like maybe a more web to context of just what's wrong with kind of the way that companies tend to be structured and work. And a lot of myself Senator Little radical probably will not be able to adopt it. But that's okay.

Jason Knight  19:38  
Well, you know, baby steps, but Baby steps, baby steps, but let's get specific for the Boomers and Gen X people listening to this, maybe some of those 22 year old consultants as well. Yeah, the web two people, my people. So for the uninitiated, how would you describe web three in a nutshell?

Rachael Sacks  19:56  
Damn. All right. Natural integration kind of natural progression of where the internet is going to something that is more decentralised. Where is it like you're not going to be owned by Google by Facebook or Twitter is going to be all these different spots, and everyone is going to be trying to build new things. And there's a lot more opportunity to do more interesting, innovative, disruptive things, without having to deal with larger institutions, without having to deal with a lot of bullshit. It's all kind of what the underlying thing is. And then the community layer of it is people in this space are open minded by nature, just because of being drawn to it with a lot of stigma. Yep. So a lot of times the accompany the people, everybody around you is a very open minded person who's kind of been a lot of the fringes of society and kind of gets it, which is what's been really great for me. These are not the always people who just want everything. That's the difference in web two, and web three, a lot of people in web two, all the founders, and that are these people who have just gone to Stanford, they've played sports, they've like whatever, they've never had a real upsetting thing happened to them in their life. Yeah, most people web three, have had a lot of shit happen to them in their lives. And so that translates to kind of a different form of empathy for other people.

Jason Knight  21:19  
That's interesting, though, because whilst I agree that there is obviously a big community out there, and I'm sure that that's really helpful to kind of drive that sense of belonging within the space. And there's obviously, a very egalitarian anyone can get in type mentality around this stuff. But at the same time, you do have some of those Stanford pros, yeah, in the space as well, right, and you still got all your a16z is investing in it, and all these VCs investing in it, and it almost feels like, you know, say goodbye to the old bus, welcome to The New Boston, it's still the same thing. Because people, ultimately, the people that are out there trying to make money off of stuff, are going to look at this, see a gold rush and enjoy and go and make some money out of this instead. Right? So do you think that there's an answer to try to have this more bottom up innovation and bottom up community versus all the money being poured in by institutional investors trying to get rich and VCs trying to make a bunch of money?

Rachael Sacks  22:15  
I mean, there's different people, I think, kind of like myself, who really want to work with these people to get them to understand how to really bring their products about an authentic way, even if it's who knows where it's coming from, in their mind, even if it is that I need to get rich thing. The fact is, there's just certain facets of web to business that just don't work and will not be received well, and they think that that's what they need to keep doing. And it's wrong. Like I see job postings and it's still asking for like I investment banking experience is still asking for consulting experience. And I think all that is really, really irrelevant. Yep. Because it means that you just, it all it tells me is you know how to kiss ass and get coffee. That's really all it tells me. And I've done that professionally and like, within, like, running an executive office, like and it's just like, Okay, well, I don't get any respect for that. But yeah, there are people in this space who are just there to scam people get money, I'm not gonna say it's all rosy and beautiful. And Smiley's and kumbaya shit, it's not, you find there's, it's large enough that yeah, you're may have to deal with those institutions, and those VCs and those people, but you don't need to deal with them all the time. Like you find your communities, you find your people, and that becomes your life. That becomes where you're trading alpha, where you're doing all these other things, you're talking, you're having moments, you're seeing them in person, it's it's such a special bond. And that kind of thing really can't be screwed with if it's someone really over you. Because you're not like you're necessarily going to be working for these VC backed companies like there is the opportunity for people like myself, to go really start something be like, well, what am I good at within Web three, and this desire from these companies to really get into this space, and to have people who understand both sides of it, I think is going to be a very helpful thing to move the space along with mass adoption, because he just can't be nice when something is really rolled out for a major company. It needs to be done in a very specific way that feels authentic to the product and authentic to the people. And that's what really does separates the good ones from the bad ones. Like I'd say like Nike purchasing artefact that went well, I would say that's one that went very well. Yep, a lot of celebrities getting into NF T's if it feels inauthentic, which how a lot of times it does, it does not go well, you will not be received well, it gets very ugly. Like you need to have as a famous person as a company you need to show a level of being involved with the community with the people and support it before you really launch what you need to do. You can't just say I want to launch an NF t like a random company just gonna do that. Like you need to hire the right people you need to have make it feel authentic, you need to really be selling what makes sense to these web three people, but also something that's not so intimidating and scary that regular people bolt would not get it. Like putting a credit card ability to purchase is interesting way to go. But you should also be having a wallet integration function, you should be able to purchase it with crypto because that'll make you feel like it's going along. It'll make the web for you people feel better about it. It can't at all, I always feel weirded out when I see something is doesn't make sense, like an empty coming out and just in dollars. And I'm like, that's not the point. That's not necessarily the point. And that's like the only choice like, I think it's an easy way in for people understand it. If it's like, you want to have your credit card, it's $199 for this, like, okay, that's people can rationalise that versus like whatever remember, of Aetherium. This is like, like, what is that?

Jason Knight  25:41  
Yeah, obviously keeping on top of the different values as a moving face to the best of times. But some people will say that web three doesn't really solve any problems that you can't solve in other ways. Now, I'm with you, in a sense that that's not a reason not to try it. Like there's plenty of people out there building new versions of old solutions, even in web two, vital solving all problems in web two. So I've got nothing against people building new novel solutions, or what they consider new novel solutions to solve problems that were already solved in a different way. But I'm a product guy, I like to solve problems, the best way, kind of, irrespective of the technology behind it and just focus on solving the user problem. Yeah. And there is an argument that some have spells that anything that's useful in web three isn't really very new. And anything that is new isn't really that useful. Now, obviously, you don't believe that. But what would you say to someone that said that to you?

Rachael Sacks  26:34  
I mean, that kind of saying that it's not going to change? You think they're recreating things that you don't know you need yet, I think is kind of what that is. That's really what a good founder does. And that's what a good salesperson does to you. They're coming up with a solution that you didn't know that

Jason Knight  26:48  
you need it. So you're the Steve Jobs of Kryptos is that where we're going with this one? And

Rachael Sacks  26:52  
I am not the Steve Jobs. I'm not even close. I don't know. No way in hell am I Steve Jobs are crypto.

Jason Knight  26:58  
Here's the Steve Jobs a crypto is it Vitalik

Rachael Sacks  27:01  
maybe, but he's up he's not problematic. That's the thing like you look in his me, he just stared is doing his damn thing. Like wearing weird pyjama pants and stuff with as little Sombrero, like, he doesn't give a shit. And that's kind of what the icon that this web three industry needs. And it has, it's like, you don't need to please other people with something. So like, so superficial, like, your appearance or something like your Yeah, who you know, whatever. It's not as much like about that. It's more about kind of what skills do you have and what to you know, especially on the developer end, I will say on the developer, and more so than on the personality end or the marketing end or the other ends of it. But yeah, for like figures that are kind of worship, like they have the chops. It's, that's what they focus on. That's their life.

Jason Knight  27:47  
Yeah, but I have seen a few high profile crypto people who shall remain nameless. Damn, they may well be some of the Stanford people. Yeah, let's just imagine they could or they couldn't be. But I've seen them on other podcasts waffling on about, like, they get asked to name a solid web three use case, like an actual specific web three use case that's better than what came before. And they kind of just wave their hands around, split a few random words and say, decentralisation a little bit. And then they kind of stop now. So this is your chance to actually be the Steve Jobs of crypto of web three. Yeah. And do better than those Stanford pros. And give me one concrete use case for web three. That is better than the web two, or web one alternative.

Rachael Sacks  28:32  
I have two. Cool. So I think one of the better ones I've seen lately is the authentication aspects for luxury clothing, because the resale market is just hotter than ever. And there's a lot of money spent on resale marketplaces such as Poshmark, the real real etc. On authentication. If it is stored on chain, which cannot be corrupted by other people, you can't fake it, you can't fake the fact this is like the same chain as Gucci, you can't do that, that does not exist, the amount of block transactions that go through, you can't so for authenticating something like a Chanel bag, Gucci purse, like something like that clothing, like the fact that you know it is this brand and the fact that you already pay all this money and you know it's legit, or you're gonna go online on eBay and buy something, it's like, oh, I don't want to be spending $600 on what's gonna be a fake purse, like something like that and you have it and you can see it, you can scan the QR code and you can view it all on ether scan and see it say this is authentic. This is what it is and it saves so much money in terms of like there's all these crews of authenticators cost millions and millions of dollars to resell companies, which are like one of the fastest growing segments of how people buy things in the world really, and I think just a better solution for everything like most of the stuff I buys us. I really do. That's what I like. I don't like contributing to more waste. not weigh. So something like that is a good use case you know what you're buying, and you know what you're getting. I've also seen that use case for marijuana products like, or even for short like buying something like that, like you don't want it to know that you don't want it corrupted, you want to know that from end to end, this is what you're getting, versus you can be sprayed with some weird shit, it can be like watered down, you never know. That's one,

Jason Knight  30:21  
just before you go to number two that I do have to mention the phrase Oracle problem and see if you have any answer to the fact that any information that goes on to that chain is only as good as the way that it gets entered for anything. That's an off chain. Good. Right. So yeah, is there an answer to that Oracle problem? Or is it? Does that require some level of trust that you can't fix with these companies chain? There's companies

Rachael Sacks  30:43  
that do that. And yes, it does require some bit of level of trust of how it is input on chain that is very true. But the level of public accountability that these companies would have and the absolute shitstorm that would go down, if someone entered it wrong. It's just not worth it for them. So they will it is worth their time to make sure it is correct. And that it's all right, or they will be blocked, royally does badly like it'll just not end well for them.

Jason Knight  31:12  
But and again, I don't want to belabour this point too much, if that's the kind of the breaking point of the whole shebang. Like if we're saying that one particular company or a selection of particular companies are the ones that are kind of responsible for making sure this stuff is all accurate and that they're the ones that are going to carry the can if it all goes wrong, doesn't that then remove a lot of the benefits of the decentralisation? Because yeah, yeah, okay.

Rachael Sacks  31:39  
Yes, that's something I'm all like, no, but the decentralisation aspect is more about being like not having to really deal with the banks. More so like the centralised banking, oh, those guys tutions being tied to the Fiat dollar being tied and stuff like that. That is really more of the decentralisation in my mind that I think people are talking about. And that's really kind of more so a way that I would translate to somebody who is more web two as a way to think about it.

Jason Knight  32:04  
All right, what's number two,

Rachael Sacks  32:06  
it'll make you feel a little more cleaner. Number two is tickets. I mean, it's kind of also in the authentication thing, but how they think about you already have it on your phone. You already have these things on your phone. If you have it as an NF. T You have people keep their tickets as collectibles. Anyways, make little scrapbooks like, still not a dead art. And also scalpers and other things like that, it's almost isn't the authentication thing. It's almost as like a carry of like 1.5 what I just said, I'm gonna bet but being able to buy things that way directly, being able to resell and also like royalties as well, like the artists gets the royalties if a scalper is selling a ticket, or someone's reselling the ticket, I think that's a new way to think about that. I mean, yeah, that's also number three is royalties, and just how people really are interacting with the art that they're selling, and like musicians and artists, the fact that their individual sales, if they're getting reached, it's, it's getting resold in an auction in like real life to you, like, you're not getting anything from that, like you made your thing you got really kind of like, cheated out of whatever it was, especially if it goes up in value for and you're staring and you're selling it on marketplace, with royalties, you're getting a piece of the pie. And I think that's something that's very special and important. As somebody who has an art background, it's a good way to go. Because a lot of times your work is used without your permission. IP gets complicated, just dealing with totally different visual art to like it gets co opted all the time. And that's kind of a problem. And a lot of artists deal with that. And being able to get royalties, if it's being resold is something that is a game changer for creators.

Jason Knight  33:36  
Well, as a former struggling musician, myself, I'll have to say that anything anyone can do to at least try to make a little bit more money for musicians is definitely appreciated and keep an eye on it. But one thing I must say is that if I want a consumer grade experience that I could give, for example, to my very wonderful, but ultimately not very tech savvy mum, it needs to be super straightforward. Like she's not going to set up her own wallet, she's not going to manage her own keys. Nope. Do you think there's enough effort at the moment going into making web three accessible to mainstream users? So for example, where designers and product managers might have the same cache within the industry as the developers working on the tech or do you think it's still very tech lead?

Rachael Sacks  34:17  
No, I think it's absolutely going in that direction. UI UX is definitely becoming the next thing people are hiring. User Experience is incredibly important. It really is a differentiator of who's adopting wallets easier. And certain features I can use a credit card like different onramps to it is really the differentiator and what was gonna make a product stand out and what's really going to make it a market maker. And I think that's everyone's thinking about that right now. To be honest, like the fact of like more public facing brands trying to get into this space like I'm so excited to see is what Starbucks is going to do with their NF t like membership, they're making it more feel more like it's a membership experience, which is a lot it is very web three of them to say like that like that is an extension of your home extension of your life. But that's kind of, yes, that is where that's going. So it trying to make it easier for people, I'm very curious to see what they're gonna do because they have, their app is actually making the most money, if anything, because people preload their cards, they don't use the money, but that money's already gone in. So I think that is like the, I forget where that was from maybe NPR or something like that, like that is where the vast majority of their revenue comes from. So it's gonna be intriguing to see what they do with this.

Jason Knight  35:27  
Well, I'm sure they'll be making some substantial money one way or the other. But one of the good things about traditional finance, is the fact that it's all guaranteed in general at least, and you can get your money back if you send it to the wrong person. And generally speaking, banks don't get emptied due to missing semicolons in a bit of code. Now, we obviously have to call out the financial crash back in the day, which obviously was almost a precursor to some of the crypto in the first place. But one of the dark sides of unregulated crypto cash is that does seem to be that quite often a lot of people lose their money. And if we get back to my mum, she doesn't want that. There's like a hacker week being shown on some sites like web three is going great. And just always something in the news about someone getting milked somehow, because something went wrong. Now, that's obviously going to be a barrier to mass adoption, if people don't feel secure, like your, your average person on the street, but do you think that's gonna get better? Or if not, do you think is a worthwhile price to pay?

Rachael Sacks  36:24  
Oh, it's absolutely getting better. There's so many tools and like people building right now, to really get that going. It's a lot of people I've spoken to, but there's been really very intense with that. That has been something that's like, the next biggest concern, of course, is security. That is the big next biggest. So I think that's going to be the biggest next thing that's happening is really that's kind of that is the biggest hurdle to mass adoption, in my opinion, is people feeling like it's your money's not secure. But also think about it, what is your bank doing with your actual money? They lend it out all the time. And they will go and invest around things like what even as a savings account? It's just as volatile just as subject to hacks. Banks can get hacked, Yeah, but

Jason Knight  37:03  
you're insured to the bank,

Rachael Sacks  37:03  
you're insured the bank, there's definitely use crypto insurance that's being created, people are doing that kind of thing. And I think that's gonna be very interesting to see what does come out from there?

Jason Knight  37:14  
Well, we just have to help the crypto insurance doesn't get hacked as well avoid Brexit Kobina, horrible circle of hack. So if we buy all that, and if we kind of say that we've converted to the world of web three and look into it, we say, well, the web three Juggernaut, you know, it's become a big thing. Now, obviously, and there's a lot of money sloshing around, there's a lot of projects, there's a lot of initiatives going on. Aetherium has now moved away from proof of work, which is fantastic, because at least we're burning a little bit less of the planet to do it. But on the flip side, a lot of the coins have dipped quite a lot. You talked about that earlier, the value has gone down quite a lot. It's been bit of a crypto crash, crypto winter, NF T's and L. For the most part, all the biggest ones are kind of worth nothing. I'm sure that some still worth something but like they're not worth half as much as people were buying them for that famous one that someone bought of like Jack's first ever tweet is now worth like, $12, or something ridiculous like that. So that might make people that are curious about this feel a little bit despondent and maybe a bit reluctant to get into it. So what's one positive web three trend that my listeners should be checking out right now? Hmm,

Rachael Sacks  38:21  
interesting choices. I mean, in terms of just like, straight up, like what new thing is coming up? Or like, what are people getting into? I've said that I'd say ens through your name service, where it's like buying, it's like, back in the 90s and early 2000s, where people would be buying domain names up and making money off of it. Well, they're still buying domain, they're still buying it. So it's exactly the same deal. So for the decentralised web for different apps, kind of if you want to go into the metaverse at all like you can have your vault because things are powered by your wallet. So it's a recognisable name set of a bunch of like characters like big strings of that. So it all can be see people can send you money, the same place. So if you have if you're conducting business, people can send you money to that spot. And it's I mean, it's all public, which is interesting to see. You can find it's also interesting for like anti money laundering it for different crime for seeing all that goes like you can see all the money going out in people's wallets. It's wild. But ens I think and like certain ones people businesses are gonna want to use there's if there's a term called squatters, so as all these big businesses are getting into web three people will buy up these DNS domains that are these company names and they've gotten some significant payouts like it's keeps on getting higher and higher because it just people are realising the demand for it. I liked it it's I honestly find it really fun I like to go on the site and see which ones aren't taken and pay like 10 to $12 a pop and then try and resell and it's it's so much fun. It is really fun to mess around with just like somebody who has like a writing I don't what is a word person honestly like? I like to see what phrases what name other things I can end up coming up with and then see like, what can I sell it for? And they I think that's really the next big spot like where most of the big sales have happened isn't ens domains right now.

Jason Knight  39:55  
Well, if it is the new version of as you said the kind of Gold Rush for domain squatting back in a day. So it kind of feels like the feels like the circles going back around again, which I should be kind of disappointed with or kind of just strap in and start buying it myself.

Rachael Sacks  40:12  
That's just how people are. I think things are cyclical like this, especially in tech, especially in innovation is a lot more cyclical than people think. Like if you think of Oh, no, we're on new ideas, or new ideas, like that kind of thing. A lot of new ideas just building off of old ones true. A lot of it is building off of old ideas and improving it or trying to find a different solution. And that's totally fine. I find that to be an accepted part of it. I think that really getting everybody over it needs to really solve daily problems and needs to be doing that. And you would offend people like Oh, it's so boring sailing on the ground doing that like, no, like my opinion, like meta virtually anything. Like, I'm not going to go shopping in the metaverse. I don't want to I like I like shopping in person. I really don't shop online that much either. I'm just somebody who likes extensive secondhand shopping or shopping. I like the the hunt. I like the experience. Yeah. So for me Metaverse is going to be if I was to use it, it'd be more of like an escapist thing versus like trying to make my current reality go to like virtual entirely like, that's enough. Like, I need to like to sit home behind my screen. Or on Twitter, I don't need an avatar doing stuff as much.

Jason Knight  41:21  
There's no legs. Yeah,

Rachael Sacks  41:22  
I need something that's just gonna like transcend something I can experience at home. Like, you can go see nature somewhere, you can go live in that, like you can go into space, like I'm about that. That's fun. That's cool. Like, you can build out these worlds. Like, that's fun. Yeah, like, I think people need to have more keep having fun with it, I think that's something that's starting to get because it's so much more monetizable. And as bigger companies are coming in, there's less fun in it. Like, there's some projects and some things that do try to capture fun. But I do think that if people need to just keep having more fun with it, because it's getting very, it's getting very serious and tone, a lot of stuff is kind of more dead. And just, I think a lot of people got freaked out. And the real people who build and will do well are still there. That's the thing like this is the time when everything is down. That's when you build, that's when you create this, when you decide to really go heads down, figure out what you want to do. That's kind of what this is right now. And let's do a period of time, I think that we're in could stock up on some things that are going to be more worthwhile assets over time. Just don't sell too early. And that's the thing, this is inevitable. All the major companies have such a thirst for it all the banks have such a thirst for it. Everyone is coming. I go to events several days a week, and meet people from all across different parts of the industry. And it's just like they're the corporate side, institutional side. It's all coming through. And that's the thing. It's like, that's what's going to really kickstart all of this. I feel like one day like you know, when you got chip cards with your credit card in the mail. Yep, it's gonna be like all of a sudden, here's your crypto wallet, this is what you need to use let's is where you're going to download it. Like one day that just going to show up.

Jason Knight  43:04  
I dazzling view of the future. And we'll see how much of that comes through in the next few months and years. But where can people find you after this? If they want to chat about crypto find out about which bits of web three are going great, or maybe get some inspiration for the next crypto project.

Rachael Sacks  43:20  
So I have a company which I launched the site Hurray. Today, we have a three on three yes narrative with a three dot XYZ. And I been in this since 2013. I offer a lot of just if you want to just understand it. If you want someone who can do workshops, you want ghostwriting, you want to do like white papers when you research and if you're somebody who wants to build a project, like a lot of people are really into the visual art aspects of your project, which is totally valid and definitely a thing. But you need someone who can help you sell it through words. Yep, like marketing is not just enough, like you need somebody who's gonna help you world build, you're gonna want somebody who's going to do more legend story. That's what makes an NFT seem more valuable. This is how this tends to work. This is what makes a community more valuable. And that tends to be also what makes said asset more valuable is the storytelling aspect. The amount of people involved, like what their calibre of people involved, isn't that you, it needs to feel sophisticated. These are companies, people run them like it needs to be run like a company. And I'm somebody who's been in corporate and kind of everywhere and all sorts of kind of as I've been in VC I've been everywhere and seen a lot and so I kind of just come here and people can pay for my services and I can just tell them what they need to know like that's really it and try to be approachable. I think there are no dumb questions. I think that a lot of other people in crypto can t a bit intimidating to talk to. My DMS are always open. I always follow back like I try to make sure that I'm getting. I'm putting like putting out what I've gotten in this. And I think that being in web three is really kind of erased a lot of the trauma that I've had for web two, that's really what it is for me. Like I've had social anxiety most of my life I can now go on to spaces or this podcast even and just talk and ramble on. People want to hear what I have to say? Yeah. And that's something that's been really good for me as a person, just to have a bit of knowledge and something I've always kind of just drifted around like, well, what am I good at? What is it and like, that's what it is I've kind of done everything. And so I tried to bring that experience to people and like compassion for everyone under trying to understand this, because it's not easy to understand there is a pretty damn high hurdle to get into it. But once you get into it, people are happy that you're there. And I think that's an important thing to keep. It really I work really hard at it, and like enforcing that, and trying to spread that to people that I know and have, and anyone who has influence in this space, like, be happy. There are more people here, like mass adoption at all costs at this point, because that's really where we're at. And I think that being early to something like, Yeah, this is how you create generational wealth. This is how you build yourself, this is what I think will give me where I need what I need, where I need to go, like to be able to be just comfortable and happy and live in my own skin and just live in the world. And I think this is where we are going. And it's important to really be able to understand that and predict it. So yes, so I help with the all of the writing everything that backs it. I've done ghost writing for years. If you want to seem like if you're a CEO or a corporate, you want to get into this, always happy to sit down and talk and say, just tell you what do you need what you need to know, in order to really bring this to the community in a way that will not be a complete dumpster fire because that is my biggest fear. That's my biggest fear is these big companies doing exactly what they do. hiring consultants don't know this industry and don't under are not going to take the time to understand it. And do it being an absolute dumpster fire of a rollout that is like shit on by the community. The floor price is absolute trash, and no one buys it. That's a major problem. And so I feel like that is something I want to make sure doesn't happen.

Jason Knight  47:03  
Well, I'll make sure to link your contact details in the shownotes and hopefully you get a few CEOs and corporate denizens and multicoloured apes heading your direction to find out well that's been a fantastic chats obviously really appreciate you taking some time despite all this stuff to jaded old dinosaur like me and trying to bring a bit of positivity to web three. Obviously we'll stay in touch but yeah, that's for now. Thanks for taking the time.

Rachael Sacks  47:26  
Thank you. That was great. This was super fun always is always like I always enjoy.

Jason Knight  47:34  
As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to hop over to white knighting product.com Check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good nights